Summary: Explains the spiritual mind. Discusses the difference between Krishna and Rama and their place in an evolving manifestation. Points out that a mystic has revelations whereas a scientist does research.

Chm.: Sooner or later the alchemy of satsang has to begin to be established – a spiritual presence, an energy field. It is no longer a philosophy but something quite pragmatic.

But I tell you, humans are not necessarily pragmatic. Most times they follow their whims and fancies. Yet even with opposition and conflict if there is something authentic it will abide. All the opposition will collapse then. I say even all that which opposes is part of the whole intent to manifest and establish what is truly authentic. In fact throughout history this has been the case. Enlightened people, spiritual people have even been persecuted – but ultimately they have won; they have overcome. It is part of the manifestation; it is part of what is to be established – because the world is always quite a way behind, in terms of the masses, and especially Indian bureaucracy is the worst. It is amazing that the people of this country who have soaked so much of spirituality in their collective national consciousness can still retain such a childish and immature understanding of what is!

Chm.: Nowadays much is happening in the research on psychic phenomena. But the understanding of pure spirituality, silence, godliness is still far away for science.

Yes, only through sadhana and meditation.

Chm.: We are aware that siddhis are far away from true religiousness, though they are very attractive for egos and minds.

That is right.

Chm.: But spirituality begins from no-ego, no-mind – a transcendence of ego, mind…

In fact there the mind is reconciled in itself in totality, in total innocence – where the Self and the mind become one. Then you have the most powerful mind: it is vested in the source of infinite energy. It is not that there is no mind, but really that mind and the Self are one – it is pure mind, pure Self. I tend to specify this because usually what people understand by ‘no-mind’ is mindlessness – and yet Buddha talks about being mindful. He talks about úûnya, but to be mindful.

Chm: In Buddhism it is bodhichitta, awakened mind.

There the mind too is enlightened. Bodhichitta actually means awakened consciousness and therefore the mind from such consciousness. But all this research and studies you mention are always external to oneself without them reaching to any subjectivity. By subjectivity I mean subjective experience. So – meditation. Basically all the work is to be done here, within. If there is a book that needs to be read, studied, understood, it is this (pointing to His heart). All is here. That does not mean no research and study should be made in, of and from the outside, but it must go hand in hand with the pursuit of subjective experience and realisation.

Chm.: The power involved in siddhis can be used for desire, motivation, domination, manipulation. Then I would not call it religiousness or spirituality. Then it is more mâyâ, or hypnosis – some kind of blindness.

And yet, this fellow (pointing to a picture of Krishna on the wall) was known to be the greatest mâyâvî – and he is supposed to be Divine! He manipulated all the time, played all the mischief – even made Yudhisthira lie! So you wonder then… That is why they send Him to hell also – the Jainas do and some other people, for he created all this herapheri, mix-up. He was an adept at that and yet people worship him!

That is why I say, before one can understand Krishna, one has to understand the place of Rama in the evolutionary ladder, because Rama lays the ground for Him to do lîlâ – in dharma. Dharma means that which allows for the manifestation of the good and the true, an increase in evolutionary manifestation divineward. Rama establishes a certain attitude, a certain way, which can then bring about the manifestation from a higher level of consciousness, so that it does not become whimsical, fanciful, wayward and wanton. It retains dharma – the dharma is maintained. Then such a one can even take out a thorn by using another thorn. That is of course to go beyond the ignorant and deceptive ego – otherwise justification, excuse, all this follows.

Chm.: The eternal problem is to decide what is good and what is bad – it is so difficult. Like the mischief He is doing can be easily called immoral, bad, cheating. It is so difficult to realise the total.

Yes, His essence as to what his consciousness is and basically where he is coming from, his motives and everything will all have to be taken into account before judgement can be passed. If you were just to go narrowly and rigidly by what are basic morals, ethics, He seems to fail. Rama on the contrary stands out.

Chm.: Yes, because Krishna compromises.

No, not compromises! Rather He is spontaneously responsive to the dharma of the moment from and for a greater manifestation of a greater Truth. He has the consciousness for that. In the ordinary consciousness this is not so, for it is unenlightened and therefore needs to conform to a structure until it can have the consciousness to see and respond spontaneously and freely to the moment. But this is too subtle for the ordinary mind to understand. So it has to approach it through Rama – you have to have a structure. This body also has a structure and a form, if it did not you could not embody what is within it and continue to develop it through time. But one need not be bound to a rigid structure. You can be spontaneous and yet not be whimsical and fanciful. What one has to work and act from is one’s conscience: for all that one does the sanction must come from one’s conscience to bring about increasingly a greater and greater manifestation. It is to be evolutionary. It is in the consciousness; it is in the seeing. One thing for someone could be appropriate, while the same thing for another may not be so.

Chm.: So the rules established by Rama are just utilitarian?

It is to prepare the groundwork, to lay the foundation for the building which is life. It is in the understanding basically – to understand Rama. But if you get fixed there you may miss out on this fellow Krishna. To understand the place of Buddha, the place of Christ, the place of Rama and therefore Krishna – and more! That kind of mind, that kind of consciousness, that kind of enlightenment. That is why enlightenment – and enlightenment is a process. There may happen a radical opening but it can never be over in an instant. For one who is enlightened, he or she sees each one’s place for what it is, and their limitations or boundaries in terms of the manifestation. And yet he or she can be open to a dynamic movement for a greater manifestation. But somewhere it has to begin from a foundation; it has to begin with a certain form, a structure – albeit an evolving dynamic one, a fluid one. But how many are open and ready for that? So the majority has to pass through that fixation, that structure, that conformity – even to keep a certain order, so that they have the space to grow until they arrive at that maturity of consciousness where no more rules bind you but you make the rules – for you live in an enlightened consciousness. Then you could play every game, and yet not out of a wantonness, but that which would bring about a greater manifestation. This is the secret of Krishna.

And as the consciousness grows in light, as the being emerges more and more in its own light, the perception of what is true would also change, become much wider, much larger. It is an ascending mode – and yet only to descend into life with greater light. So Rama ascends to Krishna, and so on. Even before Rama this process was on, this process of evolution.

Chm.: It may be a vicious circle also.

It would be if there was a case of being unenlightened.

Chm.: Yes, the enlightened ones bring some breakthrough into the vicious circle.

They always do. Without that you do not break out of the groove. It does not mean that the grooves do not have their place. But if you have the freedom you can make the grooves – and you can change them also! A lot of so-called enlightened people also groove in a certain groove; their philosophies also groove according to their personalities.

Chm.: Everything will be turned into grooves by unenlightened people. All the Buddha’s teachings have become grooves, they have been interpreted. Everything becomes knowledge, everything becomes…

Not knowledge but information – rigid adherence to a certain structure and form. But then maybe it is required for a certain period of time because they need a crutch, they need a form, a structure to keep themselves there until the awakening. But I was not meaning those who interpret; I was meaning the enlightened ones, so-called enlightened ones. Because they sometimes show that they are fixed in a certain way of seeing. Maybe a complete enlightenment has not happened yet.

Chm.: Unless it is an inner opening, an inner flowering.

Even if it be so, to whatever degree the opening, to that degree their philosophy and understanding of the Reality. And yet within the Reality every philosophy is made and contradicted at the same time. So you have theists on one side, you have atheists on the other; you have gnostics on one side and agnostics on the other; you have devotees on one side and you have the so-called self-realised ‘knowledgeable’ ones on the other – all within the precincts and the boundaries of one Reality – which is still termed to be unknowable! An experience here, a realisation there, an aspect known, is then seen as the complete philosophy and enlightenment. But enlightenment is a process from the head right down to the very toes, wherein the body gets rejuvenated, wherein your every pore awakens to a greater and greater manifestation. And your heart is filled with love and wonder. And there is then true humility – that is when one arrives at humility. There is intense power, and yet no arrogance. Just innocence. And it fills your whole being. You would embrace the whole universe. Then revelations follow one after the other, one after the other. Revelation, not research. Science does research; the mystic, the yogi has revelations – revealed Truth. What is revealed to him or her, it is themselves. Every day a new chapter, and a life that has no end – not even in nirvâṇa! No ‘gatè gatè’¹ – God right here on the earth. In form the Formless. A continuous process – the unfolding of the Reality. Then, you could be playing with the children…

Arya Vihar

16 Aug 1999