Summary: Explains that realisation is at various levels and should not be confined to a space; further that the realisation should not merely be passive but extended to manifestation also. Teaches that love of God and an inner awakening are the basis of sadhana. Points out the difference in realisations and hence the varied philosophies.

Here the realisations we seek are at different levels and of a complete nature; not necessarily so elsewhere. For some people that is fine. Anyway everybody does not have the capacity to work in this way. The realisation at Lucknow is different – it belongs to one plane only. That kind of realisation does not deal with the transformation of the body and the whole organism of life. Ours is a whole and much more complex vision. There it is only the self-realisation but the Self on a certain plane is only one part of the realisation of the Reality. In Pune too there may have been talk of different planes but the objective was nirvanic enlightenment, a forever space, the end, ‘gatè gatè’¹, with no return and it is also further confirmed from what I have seen of the people from there. Even the end epitaph for the Acharya reads: ‘He was never born and never died.’ That is why it is different there from here – it would be. And yet there would be similarities and commonalities like everywhere else. After all it is one large and comprehensive Reality with varied realisations but the salient differences are what counts to differentiate the objectives and the completeness of the realisation.

But your lack of understanding makes for simplistic comparisons. And only a person who knows can see the difference. That is why I say you do not understand what enlightenment is – even the one you seek. That is why you need to have discussions and understand the definitions, not to mention of course the experience of these things. But most people just want to have a good space. Yes, you can enter into a good space – anyway there are so many kinds of good spaces – and can stay there. But that does not mean you have everything.

I.: But if you have a good space why should you look for something else?

Well, that may be for you, it is not for us. We seek much more from and for our lives. Truly, we want to know the whole Reality and be It and nothing less. What we do here and have as our objective is much more than you and from where you come, and it is proved now by your statement. Good spaces many can have and do have in life without enlightenment, so why seek it? If it is just good space you seek, you can find it even in the mundane existence. Good spaces are available dime a dozen, literally, in the mundane existence, then why seek enlightenment?

And because it is only one space, it is not the whole Reality. Of course it is fine if you are looking only for a good space but then your realisation is limited and you remain so until you seek more.

I.: Yes, but you know that there are other spaces; they do not know.

Well, that is why they need to come to me, like you! Thank your stars that you did, otherwise you would continue to remain ignorant even in your so-called enlightenment. Even about the ‘good space’ you did not know earlier – you came to know about it through someone and therefore you want to have it now for yourself. Before you came to know you did not seek it and would have passed on from life without knowing about it. So every time you know more hopefully you will seek more of the Reality for yourself, otherwise you would be ignorant and enlightened at the same time – enlightened about something of the Reality and ignorant of the rest! Therefore we are giving you more of the Reality – of course if you want it. And if you do not, well be my guest. That’s fine with me. The people who are limited in their approach and capacity, they can only attain to wherever their capacities can reach them – to their limits – but they will not have arrived to the totality of the Reality. They may not even have really reached liberation, many of them will return still bound and unliberated. And hopefully somewhere, they may want to find out more in the future; then they will have to work again with their other parts and for the other realisations that they missed. But if they do not, we have always talked about it, then they would remain in their situation whatever that may be.

There are so many realisations, that is why there are differences in philosophies also. There is so much to the Reality, and within that a person may realise this or realise that, and be quite satisfied – fine. That is their business. But that does not mean that there cannot be other places where somebody may be working more extensively and comprehensively to discover the whole Truth and know the Reality in its totality.

Pb.: The problem is that many people who have this self-realisation say, ‛This is it, this is all, there is nothing else, I am finished – Hallelujah!ʼ

Hallelujah! Yes, this happens. For the majority this may be all right. But there may be a few, call it a minority, who may want to work more extensively for the complete Reality. You see, there is the self above life – away from life. And then there is the being – self in life. There is a development of the soul in and through life, through experiences and realisations; and there is the experience and realisation that is beyond life. You have the cosmic (the universal), you have the transcendent and you have the immanent. You can experience the self, become detached, become a passive existence. I mean you will move around, you will be seen to be active – but still the experience is a passive one. And the fact is that there are many more realisations. There is much more to the Reality that you are that is yet not known: the dynamism and the many planes of the being, besides the immanent, the cosmic and the transcendental supreme.

For example, God-realisation is not there in today’s so-called enlightened ones. They may have a certain space of liberation; they may have opened out in some regions and then be stationed there – and it will be nice energy, a good space. But it is only one opening, one region. And because they are fixed in that, then you experience one state of energy and consciousness around them all the time. But there is also the movement of the energy at various levels through the many regions of the consciousness while at the same time you can have the transcendence, the heights, but for that therefore it requires that kind of awakening. Awakening otherwise, like enlightenment, can mean anything. Yes, there is something that you feel and you say he is an awakened one. But it too is very ambiguous. There is an ascending and a descending mode to the Reality. But in Lucknow this is not present – there is self-realisation, period. I have said this before, anybody and everybody are welcome to be in that way, but this is not the case here. Here we seek the complete Reality, even so the Godhead. We want the complete experience, the complete Reality.

I.: But Ramana Maharshi, he reached there – did he not?

He is a great self-realised soul with realisation far more than what is in Lucknow, a truly remarkable soul, but he is definitely not in life – you can see that. His realisation does not participate in life, the dynamics of life, the dynamic Reality. He is free, liberated – but his is a passive realisation. And of course for Him and his realisation we have our appreciation and our pranaams… Many self-realised souls, enlightened souls, arrive at this realisation, and because the experience is so radical – I have spoken so much about it – they feel: ‘This is it.’ And they speak according to that. That becomes their philosophy. It is not that they are wrong: they are coming from where they are – they are being true to whatever their experience and realisation. And because in their presence you can feel their state – so you also say, ‘Okay, this is it.’ That is why even Aurobindo used to say, “My work is meant for only a few,” because the work and Reality involved was vast and difficult and realisations many.

Pb.: It takes years just to understand you, Giridharji, because the whole view here is so different from all the others.

The Acharya may have at times generally talked about different levels and going beyond ‘enlightenment’, still the end was enlightenment of the nirvanic kind.

Pb.: Osho was certainly larger than mere self-realisation. But we sometimes only heard one part of what he said, one aspect, and made it the whole.

This clearly happened. It is just that when people start to compare one with the other ignorantly and make simplistic judgements it needs to be corrected and clarified. That is why it is important to understand what one is seeking through inquiry for which you need to stay in one place for a long enough time. The books therefore say to stay with one Master until you understand him and his realisation to avoid confusion.

I.: The reason I am visiting many enlightened people is not to compare them but to see what has happened to them. If I want to be like them then this would be the thing to do.

And yet you do not understand either of them and neither do you place them in the correct perspective and context, for different things may have happened to them and therefore their realisation and experience may differ from each other. Do you inquire? No, you do not, rather you run from one to the other for the sake of their ‘energy’ and ‘good space’ and paint them with one brush or make stupid comparisons and judgements based on your likes and dislikes, your feeling or your mood or what you get from them. Your approach to your seeking is totally flawed and most childish. Anyway your soul and its destiny will carry you and so it is. The soul has its destiny of its own making according to its intent and capacity and arrives wherever it has to reach for that life, for the next life, and so on.

I.: I remember Osho used to say you have to go beyond enlightenment.

Whatever that means! Enlightenment is a very ambiguous term! What does enlightenment mean? At one time he talked about Krishna, the future man…

Pb.: Not really. When he spoke about Krishna there was nothing but Krishna. But then when he spoke about Buddha it was only Buddha, and so on. He just happened to talk about Krishna in the seventies, that is all.

We also speak about Buddha and Krishna to find out who they were and what they were, and of course we integrate them to understand their experiences and realisations, and to study the Reality as a whole.

Pb.: Your integration is immediate, let us say. While Osho, some people even compared him to a medium – I am not saying he was – for he was as if ‘possessed’ by whatever viewpoint he was taking up. Talking advaita he would become advaitin; talking of Jesus he would become Jesus – and so on. In the long run it would make your mind larger – if you took them all in. But if you identified with one viewpoint alone you would be in a mess.

Which is what has happened, for he too in the end seems to have succumbed to it. Here we integrate the whole thing to study and understand the whole Reality. We talk about manifestation. So it is not just a passive realisation, or a finding of something and then remaining there; but to actually also bring our realisation into active manifestation and participation in and of life – the dynamic side, to be able to bring it forth in life, and therefore transforming life, to divinise it. It is therefore also evolutionary of the being in life and an increasing manifestation of the Divine besides.

Pb.: This world was given more importance in Pune than in other more traditional philosophies and places. The transformation of life on the planet was one of the things on the agenda. Here with you it is the focus – there it was one of the things talked about.

Not the world but ego-centric personal life was given more importance at the expense of all else. And it is not as if the other traditions did not give enough importance to life and the world, but it was at and from another level. Also to clarify, transformation of life with the increasing realisations of the being and self right up to God-realisation and Divine manifestation is our objective.

And again you can see that even between Pune and Lucknow there is a difference, quite obviously so – although the Acharya too talks about no return leaving behind life on earth. So where is the transformation of life? This is a contradiction. There cannot be a transformation without return for an ever increasing manifestation – that is what we say. But when you start to compare, then you will have to really look through many things. I do not think you people have that kind of eye yet, to be able to become objective and see exactly what is happening here and what is happening elsewhere, and what is the difference, although I have been talking about this from the very beginning. I tell you these ‘enlightened people’ of yours will be coming back, whether Lucknow or Pune, albeit with whatever they have – because the final liberation has not happened! And it is good, for when they come back, whatever their realisation, as they journey through yet another life they may discover something more and carry on further.

And if you are only seeking a final liberation from earth-life sometimes your efforts and realisations may not carry you all the way in one life – then you have to come back and carry on from there. For us of course the journey is of endless lifetimes of increasing realisations and manifestations, both Heaven and Earth, not just one or the other!

I.: What do you mean by manifestation?

Manifestation as in life and action in the world. To bring it into dynamics – the dynamism of the realisation. The realisation is not only passive. This self-realisation that people have usually is a passive one. There is a dynamic side to the Reality also. If you have the complete realisation, you have it. Just like creation is dynamic. You see, you have the ocean without movement, that is passive, there is no manifestation, no action; then you have the ocean with movement – with movement the power is manifesting, there is dynamic action. This is the dynamic side, the manifestation side of the Reality. Most people just go into detachment and remain in a passive realisation. They do not come into dynamic action; they do not see a dynamic Absolute – they only see a static or a passive Absolute. Their liberation is a static one, passive one. But there is liberation even in the dynamism!

This may only confuse you. It is better sometimes to wait for knowledge, information, until you get some realisation or at least the awakening. This is why we talk about the basics first: awakening, love of God, awakening of the force, because that starts to unfold you in so many ways, unfolding the Reality. And this self-realisation is part of it. The Self is not only passive, the Self is also dynamic – plain and simple. So the realisations are not only static and passive; they are also dynamic. And depending on your approach, you can arrive at one and not the other. That is why the movement has to be an integrated one, a whole sadhana, a complete sadhana – a comprehensive understanding and realisation of the Reality.

I.: How?

(Laughing) Well, meditate and awaken to it!

Pb.: But that is the same answer that the enlightened ones give!

Well, it depends on where you are and how you meditate and with what objective. You have to be where the complete sadhana is being done. Obviously some places and approaches to sadhana can never take you to the complete Reality because they do not have it. Of course here you get headaches too!

Pb.: And hostile forces…

You have to deal with all this through your sadhana, your meditation. This is part of the dynamics of the complete sadhana. In other places except for a rare few this is not dealt with, they are never made to confront it and therefore do not even know about them or even want to deal with it, so how can their sadhana be complete? The hostiles exist on a certain plane through which you will have to pass. In fact, for a complete transformation you will have to face these things successfully: they are the signs that your sadhana involves more than what is done ordinarily and therefore the reach and what you achieve will definitely be more than what the others have or will. And if they want the complete thing then they will have to work in this way also and deal with all this – without this it is not possible.

It is very obvious. Can you not see the difference? For example see the difference between what was in Pune and N.M. – so obvious – and (laughing) between U.G. and J.K.², and what U.G. says. U.G. received whatever he has from J.K. and yet the differences. J.K. is complete and increasing; that is why he talks of life with increasing manifestation also. U.G. calls everything ‘nothing’, for he is stuck where he is in his nothingness. If he had continued with J.K. maybe he would have gone further. But it wasn’t to be, for he doesn’t have the karma and the receptacle for it. Poor fellow, he missed out. So U.G. himself is nothing and still people go to him – to be nothing I suppose!

Then again look at Christ and the Buddha: there is difference. Look at Krishna and Christ and the Buddha – there is a vast difference! Buddha is all impersonal – and Krishna? Ah! Who can be so personal and yet be transcendent and impersonal, a perfect balance. So full of life, zest and joy unlike the Buddha and even Christ! Christ and Buddha, there is difference. Christ says there is soul and eternal life, while Buddha says there is no soul and professes nirvanic liberation beyond life! You see, the Reality is not just one space or one realisation of the Self. Therefore we here want to know the Reality in its entirety! We want the complete Reality, not just a part of it.

I.: I think these Masters know there is much more. They must know.

But then they would talk about it, would they not? This is your belief and hope I suppose, now that we are discussing them. You are now being made to think by us – before you never gave it a thought and neither did they make you think, so you are looking for anything to say, so you are saying it. If it was true then they would talk about it, would they not?

I.: They talk more about what they got.

But do they say, ʻThis is all I have found, but there is and may be moreʼ? Do they say that? Then they would be objective with their realisation, and truthful to the Reality.

Pb.: No. They say, ‘This is it. This is the ultimate. You are That – this is it. That is all.’

I say: this is what I see – and yet there is so much more. This is the tradition of the Ṛishis from the Upanishads. They say, “One who says, ‘I know It’ knows It not! One who says, ‘I am knowing It’ truly knows.” One is always in the process of knowing It. Then you have to get into all the subtleties and the levels of being and realisation. Gradually and progressively in time it will come to you, of course if you hang around.

So it is all right, better to begin simple. Meditate and as you go along we will guide you, but then have you the patience and commitment? Of course that too we will develop for you if you allow us. Seek the awakening in yourself. Whatever you get be happy with it, but do not stop. Carry on – this is all. Even if you get some really radical space which you may term enlightenment, self-realisation, or bliss – keep inquiring in yourself: ‘Is there more?’ Just this much.

I told you a story yesterday about the Master telling his disciples, “Go into the forest, there you will find untold treasures.” And they go. They find this pile, this forest of sandalwood, mountains of it. And they come back thinking they had found everything, ‘Yes, we found the treasure. This must be it.’ But the Master sends them back, “No – carry on. Okay, you found this treasure, but carry on. There is more. Don’t stop.” So some may carry on, some may not. They may say, ‘I am quite satisfied with this,’ like you say about the ‘good space’ or they all may carry on. And so carrying on they come to silver, they come to gold, and they come to diamonds progressively – and still carrying on they find untold treasures. Where is the end?

In the Gîtâ Sri Krishna tells Arjuna: “Manushyâṇâṃ sahasreshu kaœchidyatati siddhaye, Yatatâmapi siddhânâṃ kaœchinmâṃ vetti tattvataḥ”; “Among the multitudes of humans a rare one strives after perfection, and even of those who strive and find perfection, rare is the one who knows me in the full truth of my Being.”³ I would say few seek to know the Reality completely or at least keep themselves open to know it completely. It is not that the other realisations are denied. It is just the openness to inquire – is there more? It describes the capacity of the individual soul. So if the soul is quite satisfied with sandalwood and silver, fine, well that is that soul’s capacity. But a soul may not be satisfied with that and may want to carry on and arrive at the gold also. So sandalwood, silver and gold. And some may stop at that – fine. And some may not even stop there and carry on. And they come to the diamonds – and some may not even stop there and still carry on. It is left to the individual. I say what I see, what I know. I am just being myself. If anybody would like to have it, well, we will carry them with us.

And to know the Self in many ways, it has its own quality. Love of God for example – something from the deeper heart. Different centres have their own different texture and feel and world. There is love of God that Christ talks about, and God-realisation. And then there are those who talk about self-realisation. Is there a difference? Do you ever question? Of course there is, but you always put everything in one box!

You can rise above life into a great experience, resting in a passive beautiful light and energy: you feel blissful, and can remain there. And so you can say: ‘Okay, finished – I am liberated.’ But there are those who have that – and also descend into life! It depends on what kind of sadhana you have. But some remain there in the rarefied atmosphere above and beyond life and then that is it. It is all there is for them. This is liberation for them because otherwise life is a misery, what with all the conflicts of duality they have to encounter and face in the world. To some extent they do, but they are so much in this space that the duality of life does not touch them, or it touches them very feebly. As you rise higher the emotions and feelings touch you less and less for you are moving out of the realm of life consciousness. But the moment you were to descend back, you would feel their intensity once again. It is like if you have fire – you go near it, you feel the heat more and more. The more you move away from it, you feel the heat less and less. It is just different positions. So this so-called enlightenment too is only a position! Of course it is a good escape, blissful. But then why all this fire – this fire of life – what is the need of it? Then you can call it an illusion – from certain spaces you can look at it as an illusion like the advaitins. Or you can call it saṃsâra and say there is no soul in life; there is only nirvanic enlightenment to seek like the Buddhists.

I have given this example before – how it was with Ramakrishna being up there above life in a very high space and receiving the news of his nephew passing away. He is in a state of bliss, so at that moment it does not touch him. But later when He comes down, he feels the emotions and the feelings. His sadhana of course is of a complete kind, one where you do not remain in this space all the time and yet can at will. Otherwise those who remain fixed there, they have the same feel and one state all the time.

Maybe this is too complicated for you… so maybe we should avoid all this philosophy. Okay, this is the sadhana – just do it. But then the sadhana is very much part of what we are going to achieve, so knowing where you have to reach cannot be avoided, for which understanding the Reality is indispensable. Sorry, there is no way out at least for those who want the complete sadhana and therefore the complete Reality. So I will say, be there wherever it appeals to your soul.

Here we seek the love of God and the awakening of the force to begin with. And we work towards a Divine manifestation – and that is progressive. We have to look at our various parts, see the different parts of our being and work with them to bring about a complete transformation, which is an integrated process. It is a process; it is not an end. Since you have taken to this journey know this – that you have to further yourself. So wherever you further yourself in your consciousness it is good. For us here, we have to go into hell also, so it is a little difficult, putting it mildly! It is not only the heavens you have to reach out to but also down into hell. So better to just remain with heaven… but anyway, for us – we have to go into hell also. Me for sure! And others who want to join, they can join. Welcome to my nightmare! (Uproarious laughter)

Pb.: Thanks – but we have our own nightmares!

I know, but they are of your own making while I have to carry yours. You need not of course go into hell, you can just remain with the heaven, wherever there is only heaven. But I have to descend into hell – again and again. And not just one lifetime, every lifetime – until hell is heaven! Until hell is heaven… but such a lot of work!

I.: But it does seem to fit you…

Yes – well, I come from that tradition, that lineage. We are used to hell.

I.: Do you have an intuition as to when your work will be finished?

No, not an intuition – I see. And I see looking at you people that it seems to be endless! Ha! Ha!

I.: Do not be so pessimistic!

That I never am and never have been, it is not in my DNA. Not so, not so indeed, just saying it as it is – and so we carry on. You see, in our lineage we just carry on with what needs to be done.

I.: Even if there is only one disciple?

Even without disciples! I carry the flag alone. Working with disciples is only one part of the work. The process that we work with is to lift us to higher and higher states of consciousness. But there is also a descent, where you descend to the lower states of consciousness. And this ascent and descent brings about a tranformation at various levels – also opening out in all the centres. You can have the experience of the Self at any level; you can have it above all levels. These are the various positions of the one Self. Realisation, transformation, increasing manifestation and therefore participation in life raising it from the human to the Divine. This process is a whole and integrated movement. This is what we seek. You grow in your experiences, you grow in your understanding and you grow in life. In a way you can call it ‘self-discovery’. But what is the Self? It is the complete Reality – not just one space, one level. It is an uncovering of what the Reality is, which is what you are: the whole and complete Self.

And the methods are: meditation, your activity, your sadhana which means the whole of your life. If changes need to be made, you make the changes. If things need to be enhanced, you enhance them. There is the energy and the freedom that would follow as the process unfolds through sadhana.

Arya Vihar

16 Jun 1998