COMMITMENT IS INDISPENSABLE FOR SADHANA

Summary: Explains that commitment is required to achieve any result; gives the example of Marpa and Milarepa and explains that the kind of commitment and surrender shown by Milarepa is strength, not weakness, requiring lifetimes to develop; elucidates on the Guru-disciple relationship with many examples. Emphasises the sacredness of the spiritual journey; gives the examples of Christ and Buddha to illustrate stupendous commitment. Further speaks about human relations. In answering a question explains the departure of Sri Chaitanya and other great souls from home. Discusses various issues like destiny, responsibilities, and mohā, through the Mahābhārata.

My seat keeps rotating to a new position every day… When we began it was like this (gesturing), and slowly it has become like this. I suppose I will end up facing that direction eventually!

(People make some adjustment as Giridharji jokes about it)

O.: I am not sure about commitment.

You are not sure about commitment? What do you mean by commitment?

O.: You said one has to commit himself and for myself I see commitment to be something like surrender and I see there is a part of me which is not able to surrender. From this angle I really do not understand what real commitment means. I see there are still desires of becoming or doing something.

You can have commitment to your practice – practice of meditation – and that is a commitment. It is not that you would do it one day and then give it up. There is no commitment then. Without commitment you do not get anywhere. It is like if you are looking for water then you have to dig deep enough, so you have to be committed to that digging. If you just scratch the surface a little bit and then give it up, then obviously you do not get water. So continuing to dig means that you are committed, committed to finding water. That is commitment. To be committed to your seeking, to be committed to your practices is an ongoing process. You may have to build it up through a period of time. It may not happen immediately. So in a way it is surrendering – it is surrendering to finding that water. You are committed to finding that water. If you are not committed enough, you do not find that water. So you would have to surrender yourself, surrender everything else to digging for that water.

Really, commitment is required for any result, for anything. Even if you were to take up massage as you want to, you would have to commit yourself for the required period of time. The more complete your commitment, the more complete the results you get. If you do not give enough commitment you will be able to manage only that much: it is directly proportional to the degree of commitment you have to anything. Look at the musicians, they can be very committed to their music, so they become good. You have Bach, you have Strauss and Beethoven – they were very committed to their music. Van Gogh as a painter and an artist was totally committed to his painting and that did not happen overnight of course. He built his commitment over long time. You have many painters, many musicians, but they are not as good as these; and the difference is – commitment. So in a way they surrender themselves to their art.

Well, definitely you have to give up your ego. It is not that you surrender yourself to some form or image; it is basically a surrender of all that which would impede your progress. It is committing yourself to a wiser counsel, somebody who is wiser than you, who knows more.

Like if you were to take up music you would have to surrender yourself to the music teacher – to the one who knows more about music than you do. That is why you go to him to learn music. If you are all the time struggling with yourself and him, then you waste so much more time when you could be easily learning about music. It is a struggle of the ego.

Even that is fine; as long as you are around the Master, ultimately the ego collapses. This is what happened with Milarepa. Marpa was bringing him to that complete commitment. He gives Milarepa a project to build a house for him as a test of his commitment and in trying conditions. For his lodging and boarding he had to take care of it himself outside of the ashram, begging for his food from surrounding villages. The ashram would not take care of him. Nobody was going to cook for him. While he was building the house, that too not for himself, spending all his time to finish it in a given time-period, Marpa makes him go out there and do his own food finding: ‘You have to take care of your body, do it all on your own; and you do not get any place to sleep here also.’ Many would have run away. But then they did not become Milarepa – they would not.

In this way Marpa was making him completely committed through very trying conditions to make him surrender his ego to prepare and create in him the depth and correct attitude required for the sadhana. So He disciplined his ego, deepening his commitment by eliminating negative resistance to his guidance and suggestions completely, to ultimately bring him to his true Self. Milarepa committed himself totally to whatever Marpa asked him to do. It did not mean that there was no inner struggle, there surely was, but he stood by and with Marpa, and not his ego. He went beyond the struggle; he exceeded himself, his smaller self. Ultimately he understood why Marpa made him go through all that. So he surrendered completely to Him – otherwise why would Marpa make him break down the house the first time he built it and make him build it somewhere else on some flimsy pretext or the other? Every time he finished building the house Marpa made him break it down and build it again or elsewhere. He was not so much as making him build his house as he was preparing and building Milarepa for sadhana. He was transforming him for the sake of enlightenment. He was making him deep by sounding his depth, he was making him large. Milarepa, of course, passed the test in the most exemplary fashion. In your mind you would think, ‘This man is crazy. Hey, he does not even know where to build the house, and he is getting me to do it and that too under such difficult circumstances, treating me so badly.’ You would have run away even before you started. Marpa was cleaning his ego, redesigning it so to speak, with depth, devotion and commitment, but if you want to keep it as it is, it cannot work. He was transforming his ego to be conducive to sadhana.

That is why Masters are Masters. And even to become suitably committed like that requires many lifetimes. It is a great quality, it is not a lack of quality, it is not a lack of strength. Milarepa was a very strong person. And it can be seen that finally if what he achieved was so immense, it was because of what Marpa made him go through. So in the realm of spirituality, in the realm of enlightenment, in fact, this is one of the basic requirements, foundations on which you will build your sadhana. Even the Buddha used to say that to his people, “If you do not follow my teaching and guidance you are not the disciple of the Buddha.” This was His statement again and again. He was asking them to be committed to him. What is the meaning of ‘taking refuge in the Buddha’? Surely not just for food and shelter or for cutting capers!

Milarepa took refuge in Marpa. He decided to take refuge in Marpa in spite of what he had to go through. That is commitment. There were other disciples living with Marpa in his ashram, around him, eating with him; but he treated Milarepa as if he disliked him, as if he were his step-son and wanted to get rid of him on this pretext, or so it seemed. But Milarepa stuck on and therefore Milarepa became greater than the others, because he developed his commitment to such a high degree. Then he could spend days, months, years in meditation in the caves living only on nettles. So the Guru, the Master is the final word. In fact in the past, before the Teachers would accept anybody they wanted them to make this kind of commitment from the very beginning. It is only today – modern times – ‘little bit here, little bit there’ is the type and style of commitment expressed… It is kaliyuga truly, that is why.

I will give you another example. Do you know about Yogananda of Self-realisation Fellowship? Somebody came to his Grand-Guru, Babaji, who was sitting on top of a mountain and asked to become his disciple. He said, ‘Go and jump off this mountain!’ He did. He broke every bone in his body. That is commitment. This is not a child’s game. Where we are leading you to is something you can never reach without that quality and strength of commitment. Of course you don’t need to break your bones but even if you end up having to on the way, you still stand committed, otherwise it is better playing around with little toys like everybody else in the world…

It is only the ego that gets in the way. But it was through the working with Milarepa by Marpa that he reached where he did. Milarepa’s love for His Master, his Guru, his Teacher was immense. And when he was finally meditating in the caves only living on nettles, he received the final grace: the touch of the Master who appeared to him in a vision and opened him to the ultimate experience.

This the West is lacking. They do not have it culturally, because they have never had the Guru-disciple tradition like the East, so the tradition of commitment of one’s ego to the Master as a necessary prerequisite does not exist. For their spiritual development they have to come to the East and therefore you have so many westerners here now. They can be immediately committed to whatever level since there is an awakened need in them for something more than what their materialistic societies can offer however imperfect the understanding of what, why and how they seek. Not the modern Indian now though, who feels no such need and who is quite happy for the moment pursuing his or her need for material happiness as inculcated in them through their implanted materialistic westernised educations which has not only uprooted them from their core traditions but developed in them malformed western-oriented big egos who most times even look to such time-tested traditions of their own civilization with indifference, if not scorn. When one comes to the Master the ego is to be left out. That is the case for any kind of learning but their learnt stupidity prevents them from understanding this.

That is why Babaji asked that man to jump off the cliff. Without batting an eyelid, ‘Do you want to be my disciple? Go and jump off that cliff!’ Real Masters are not interested in collecting people. They want real people; they do not want mass, quantity. They want committed people, not fairies that fly from one place to another. They want people rooted in the real thing, wanting the real thing. Therefore Milarepa.

Seeking of enlightenment, taking to this journey, taking to sadhana is more than just techniques. It is more than just going and sitting around in some place. It is that commitment. Not one lifetime commitment – it can be ‘n’ number of lifetimes. Therefore as is your commitment so is your reach. So if there is a Master who expects great commitment from you, that Master is good. Usually you start rebelling and reacting, ‘Oh, I have to surrender…’ But if you ever find someone who asks of you your complete commitment, know that He is worth being with. That Man is worth being with: you will get somewhere real but elsewhere even if you get some experience or so otherwise, it will not have much depth.

You can have water in this (indicating a shallow dish). It is not very deep. You can have water in this (pointing at a deeper cup). They both contain water. But is there a difference or not? How much water can this contain, and how much the other? By making you committed each time at every turn, twist and bend that you may have to take, the Master takes you deeper and deeper into your own depths extending and exceeding your capacities – and into a more profound vehicle. So He will ask of you your commitment.

From this He is not going to benefit in any way; nor is his ego going to grow, for he has finished off the ignorance of his ego a long time back. He is very strong, but his strength comes from his realisation, his spirit, the power of the force that is awake in him and that can move mountains. He does not become big or small just because you do or don’t surrender your ego. That is your own misunderstanding, shortcoming – really you never approach, you never arrive at the most beautiful relationship that can be in this way, the relationship between the Master and disciple. Read Vivekananda’s life, read Ramakrishna’s life, read the life of Buddha and his disciple Ananda, read about the Nazarene – then you will realise what is a real relationship. How much love there could be, selfless love, selfless devotion. And Ramakrishna gave everything, all his attainments, to Vivekananda. All His power, experiences and realisations – just gifted it to Him! But He did not compromise with the commitment because only then could Vivekananda hold and retain all that he received in sacredness, which he held most sacred. The difference is that the ego wants to take, but the Master wants you to receive. There is a difference. So Marpa is only wanting Milarepa’s ego. He wants him to surrender his ego so that he may receive his Self – and therefore be totally committed, committed to what he would give him.

Compassion is a gradual development; even commitment can be so – and that is why living with the Master you develop many qualities and traits that are then conducive to your spiritual development and growth. So you are ‘under instruction’, so to speak, like when you go to school the teacher instructs you, teaches you. But this is different – it is a living instruction for a subjective transformation, illumination, enlightenment and realisation of Self and God.

For many days Milarepa was not even able to meet Marpa, because he had no time. He did not even manage to sleep at times. He had to either look for his food or find shelter in adverse weather conditions, and at the same time build this house. He had a timeframe, he had to build it in a limited period of time. For many days he would not even see Marpa, while others were all the time around Marpa. That is why I said on the first day that you can be near and yet be far, you can be physically far and yet be near. So even though Marpa is living with all these other disciples around him, his mind is on Milarepa – and Milarepa’s mind is on Marpa. Commitment does not necessarily mean physical nearness. It means to be near in your attitude. It is all in the attitude. It is a development. That is how Milarepa’s commitment was also a development. Only then was he ready for meditation. That is why I said meditation is more than just technique. But today this is what is understood – do a technique and suddenly you are enlightened. The spiritual journey, or the journey of life, is a lifetime’s commitment. It is not a momentary thing. You may begin with a moment, but then you have to keep adding the moments. That is a development.

Ramakrishna tested Narendra, later famous as Vivekananda, in many ways. He was sounding his depth. The Teacher, the Guru, the Master sounds the depth of those who come to seek from him, all the time. For the Guru is not a technician, he is not giving mere techniques. Techniques if and when given, remember, are only a means; they are practices for you to develop. But there is more to your development than that. Even if the technique were to be successful to whatever extent, it could not be in a vacuum. You would need to develop and transform your entire being conducive to enlightenment. You have to become a fit container. So Babaji asks this fellow who seeks to be his disciple, off the cuff – ‘Jump off this cliff.’ Just like that. He did not even wait for him to develop his commitment, he just tells him outright – ‘Jump off this cliff!’ That kind of commitment He wants from the very beginning. There are Teachers and Masters like that. Better to be with such Masters and Teachers. But you will not get many disciples around them though! Many run away aghast, I would say most if not almost all, when they are asked of such a commitment. It is also a device by such Masters to get rid of the riff-raff and the mediocre. That is why the Master has to give a watered-down teaching to most. To some who are ready, yes, you can give them the highest, the full truth, because they are ready for that.

So Milarepa was made ready by Marpa. The others always have Marpa with them: they are working, they are laughing, they are doing everything together, having a good time, – while Milarepa is treated like a step-son, kept away and made to toil being tested for his commitment. He is made to live out in all weathers under the sky, whether it is raining, storm-winds or shine under the heat of the sun – putting him through discomfort and neglect. But Milarepa never wavers in his self-offering. It just shows the commitment Milarepa had. And therefore Milarepa is Milarepa. In this way Marpa took him beyond the egoistic or utilitarian relationship to the relationship of the spirit – a devotional relationship, a deeper connection, soul connection. Not a relationship of a technician and a technique-seeker tourist. If you want to be special then you will get special treatment! Special treatment does not mean pampering. Milarepa got special treatment from Marpa, the most special. Marpa is looking at him as a special person, so he really works with him. It does not mean He does not want to work with the others, but the others are not yet ready to be worked with in that way, to that extent. They will break, they will run away. Maybe a hundred lifetimes from now they will be ready as Milarepa is.

But today seeking of enlightenment has become like a fashion. It is a glamour show: somebody sitting on the podium and the others going gaga over him. There is much blah, blah and not much getting anywhere, and not much depth. Maybe some energy, some experience, some space – but when you sound them, they sound all hollow, without substance. They are undependable, unreliable, uncommitted and unaware. Today you have many so-called enlightened people moving around. You sound them, they ring hollow. Therefore Buddha used to say, “You are not the disciple of the Buddha if you are not committed to the Buddha.” It is easy to say, ‘The Buddha gave this technique.’ You want to know the depth of the Buddha? Ask us, because we can tell you. We know what Buddha is, what Mahavira is, what Masters are supposed to be.

So, as much as is your commitment, that much will be your enlightenment. That will be the quality of your enlightenment. How deep you make of yourself, that deep will be your enlightenment. Buddha and the Masters from the very first moment will ask you to sink all your boats and to jump into the ocean. So you have no support or refuge except the Buddha, the Master, and the Journey. Have you that kind of commitment? It takes lifetimes to develop – then you will have that kind of enlightenment. And if the Master expects of you this, you are blessed indeed. This must be the attitude. Ramakrishna had many disciples, others besides Vivekananda – but Vivekananda is Vivekananda because Ramakrishna expected so much of him. Marpa had many disciples, but Milarepa is Milarepa because Marpa expected so much of him.

Enlightenment is not some degree that anybody can get merely doing techniques – somebody studies M.B.B.S. and becomes a doctor and anyone with this degree is a doctor. So everybody is enlightened – does it mean they are all the same? Even lawyers and doctors are not all the same, not only as professionals but even as persons. They have different experiences and different capacities. Someone is better than the other.

And we come back to the story of the Sufi Master, the Pir, and the murshid, the disciple, who spent forty years on the instruction of his Pir washing pots and pans. Of course today’s seekers will say it is not glamorous, ‘What kind of a technique is this? I will find another Guru!’ Because there is a guru supermarket out there, a real supermarket. ‘One shop or the other I can arrive at and go to.’ They seek no better than those gurus who sit in supermarkets. Seek a Guru who expects much more of you than even you expect of yourself. When the Master asks of your commitment, he is asking it for your sake. He is not going to benefit. When Marpa made Milarepa go through all that, it is Milarepa who benefited, not Marpa. So where is the fear of surrender? It is your ego that is refusing to understand and accept. In the presence of the Guru the ego should be buried alive!

When you are in the presence of the Buddha, ego has no place. You will miss the opportunity to get from the Buddha what he has to offer. That is why the Buddha says, “A moment of respect and reverence shown to an awakened one is equal to a hundred years of meditation in the forest.” When you start to think like this about commitment, then you are being a true seeker. Until such time you are only a tourist. There is a vast difference between a tourist and a seeker. Today most people who seek are only tourists. When you get to the stage of being a seeker then truly your journey has begun. That is why Babaji asks this future disciple of his to jump. You know, he may not have survived that jump; he may have died, but he still jumps. Almost every bone in his body was broken. Then the others had to go down, bring him up to where Babaji was sitting – and then was accepted and initiated by him. That is the kind of commitment expected. That person will go far. He would have died, you would say. And the mind will think, ‘Hey, I will die.’ No such thought: next life he will return to the Master. Do you understand what I am saying, this whole thing about connections and about the journey? What is the significance of what these Masters are talking about? What have they to offer when they can ask of you this kind of commitment? To comprehend this requires a lot of meditation. Then it will give you a slight idea of the kind of enlightenment that the Teachers and Masters of this kind want for you. It can only be accepted in faith. Then you become a vast container. Then maybe you can equal the Buddha – maybe. Buddha is Buddha not because he did some technique. Buddha is Buddha because of his Person, his commitments, his attitudes, his depth and therefore his enlightenment.

So enlightenment practice is not some chemistry lab where you mix two chemicals mechanically and get a result, a compound, without the person being involved. Anybody can do this. Tell a child to do it, he will do it: he will get the same compound, same result, mechanically without much ado. But today even science in its experiments accepts that he who makes the experiment makes a difference to the experiment. This is a different game though, for here the person is to be involved and as a result is changed and altered. Then you will look at this with greater importance, you will give it the commitment it deserves, the sacredness it deserves and not how it is now considered, just something very technical, preferably without the requirements of any developments, commitments and practices. The easier it is the better it is – this is the whole attitude, – very superficial. Small and shallow container. Commitment equals appreciation. When you show commitment to something it means you appreciate that something. The more the commitment, the more your appreciation. Say if you appreciate music, you will want to learn music, and your commitment to learn will be equal to your appreciation of it. And you will sweat it out to get to being a good musician. And there is always room for getting better and better. Time is not the criteria for truly you live in eternity. What gives you this sense of finite time is the fact that you desire something and you want to have it right here and now and therefore you compromise on commitment, you compromise on your application, and you compromise on the respect that it deserves. So commitment is appreciation. If you appreciate it, really appreciate it – that much will you be committed.

Milarepa appreciated it very much and so was his commitment. And Marpa could therefore really work with him deeply and comprehensively. He made him totally committed, then offered him the meditation on a platter – and Milarepa never looked back. The others also received of Marpa to whatever degree, but what Milarepa received, it could not be compared with the others. Not that Marpa would not want the others to receive to the same degree, but they were not ready. In time, yes. Maybe ten, twenty, thirty lifetimes hence of committing themselves they would have that kind of commitment as Milarepa.

Ancient traditions talk about accumulating merit for attainment of enlightenment. All this is accumulation of merit. Milarepa’s merit had accumulated to a great degree in the form of his commitment and devotion; he came back, found his Master Marpa again, and the moment and life where he would finally arrive. So also for Buddha: many lifetimes of accumulation of merit, then he is born as Siddhartha – destined. That destiny has been born of His merit, the accumulation of that merit. He is destined now when he is born as Siddhartha in Kapilavastu to be the Buddha. Nothing can stop Him. But that destiny is the accumulation of His merit through many lifetimes.

So let us not belittle this journey. It is the small person that belittles this journey, reduces it to a farce, and many of these so-called gurus and masters today do so. And you will get a mass of humanity without much substance over there. So when your approach is right you accumulate merit. Then maybe you can equal the Buddha, maybe, or equal the Great Mahavira. It requires commitment; it requires your application, your appreciation. The more you appreciate it, the more sacred you consider it; the greater will be your achievement.

Think about it. There are many musicians, but Beethoven is Beethoven, Bach is Bach, Strauss is Strauss. There are many painters but Van Gogh is Van Gogh. And it is all proportional to your commitment. Nothing happens overnight. There is no such thing as instant enlightenment. This is another gimmick to attract people. And what a farce it would be! And that is why it is so belittled, so ridiculous. Therefore there is no sense of sacredness; therefore there is no appreciation, because it is only when you work for something that you can appreciate it. You only end up belittling the Buddhas, the Mahaviras, the Ramas and the Krishnas and the Gurus and Masters who have even dried up their bodies, flesh and bones and blood for lifetimes, to achieve this.

It is difficult to want to surrender. To surrender does not mean there can be no inquiry, there can be no asking of questions; questions need to be asked otherwise how will they be answered? The Master always encourages debate, dialogue, inquiry and questions. The Master always wants you to stand on your own, not because of him. Therefore He seeks your commitment; therefore that you may stand on the right foundation and not the wrong one. Not because He wants you as his subordinate, even though you may be.

Vivekananda used to say the love he received from Ramakrishna he received from no one. No one could equal that love; it is a love without expectations. If there were expectations it was so that Vivekananda would manifest the utmost in his potential. The Gurus are selfless beings. To surrender to them is appropriate – they are selfless. And they never seek your subordination, they seek your commitment. In that is great dignity.

Now I understand why my seat is in this direction. I was to speak to you (referring to O.) – my sight is right there straight on you. Everything is coming out to just there (where O. is sitting). Of course I speak for everyone and to everyone. I speak for the Reality, I speak for Dharma. I speak for what is True. I speak for Buddha; I speak for Mahavira; I speak for those who have gone before; I speak for those who are here now, and I speak for those who are yet to come. I speak so that you seek in sacredness rather than in superficiality. And to seek is to offer oneself completely and totally: that is commitment.

So Babaji asked his would-be disciple, ‘Jump off the cliff!’ He challenged him: ‘Have you that kind of commitment? Have you the required kind of commitment to be extraordinary?’ So you have to continue to increase the yes and decrease, deny the no. It did not mean that the person did not have a no coming up, but he exceeded that. His yes was greater than his no. It did not mean that Milarepa did not have reactions coming up or the thought of the unfairness of the situation coming up in him, but he did not give in. He stayed committed. That is the greatness of Milarepa.

When Christ foresaw the crucifixion, it came up in him – not as a reaction of course for that would be very unbecoming of Christ – that he would rather be elsewhere. That is why He says, “May this cup of poison pass from my lips, but only if it is Thy will not my will.” That is commitment. It came up even in Christ – not as a reaction – because the severity of that crucifixion was right in front of him and the pain that he would go through. But He stood committed. Therefore He is the Messiah. He was not dancing with joy, ‘I am the son of God. Hey this is nothing! I can feel no pain!’ And that is why He is the Messiah; that is why he is so special. In spite of all that, He stands committed. This is strength. Then you have that kind of enlightenment!

When Siddhartha sat under the Aśwattha tree, the Peepal, which was finally then called the Bodhi tree, what did he say to himself? It is all about commitment. He said, “I will not get up from here until I have the Truth, even if it be that this body dies away!” But for that commitment, to reach to that point of intensity it took Him many lifetimes. He finally arrives, sits under this tree and says, “I am not going to get up from here until I have It.” All that accumulation of merit, all that development of character, Him the soul, the being preparing for enlightenment, all get together at that point, a perfect match. His destiny of arriving at enlightenment, his commitment, they are all in tune. Now many may say on an impulse, ‘Until I get this I am not going to get up from here.’ When they do not get it for a while and they get a little tired and a little weak they say, ‘Oh well! I will try again some other time.’ Not so with the Buddha. He really meant it to the end, then and there. There His whole being is behind him, not the whimsical ego. And it is in tune with His destiny, of his own making, that accumulation of merit through many lifetimes, and then he arrives at What Is… Commitment.

So it is a journey of course; it is a development. It is all about evolution. Beings are evolving depending on their application, their interactions, their inter-relations, how they meet situations, face situations, how they go about their activities – all this. Every individual being is all the time creating a self-destiny. And therefore you get what you deserve. Most times people want what they do not deserve and therefore do not get. So they get very upset.

Do you know how Ramakrishna tested the commitment of Narendra, the future Vivekananda? Narendra went through a most difficult period in his life when he was young. When His father was alive they were well-off. His father was a lawyer, a barrister. He was a very big hearted person, who would not keep anything for the morrow, he would distribute as he earned. Then suddenly His father died and everything collapsed for there were no savings, and you could say the entire family were on the streets. There was no food to eat at home. He had his mother, elder sisters, he had younger brothers to take care of, so it was on his shoulders to make a living for the family. He wanders hither and thither and on the streets but he cannot find a job; friends turn against him, everyone turns against him, all of life turns against him as it were – he is only eighteen-nineteen, a teenager. A difficult period indeed, a very difficult period in His life. Relatives turn against Him; friends turn against him, and even stab him in his back. Ramakrishna decided at that very time to test him. Narendra used to visit Ramakrishna. In a period like that anybody would expect solace but Ramakrishna would ignore Him, ignore him totally. He would not even look at Him where at one time he would direct the maximum affection to him. But it did not change Narendra’s commitment to Ramakrishna. This is how Ramakrishna was sounding His depth. It is in a state of crisis that He sounds Him, puts him to the test. But it did not alter the commitment and devotion of Narendra. Then after a month He said, “Okay you are in dire straits, you are in a crisis. There is the Mother in the temple: go and ask her for whatever you need, whatever you want – material need – because you do not have food to eat; ask her for some means of finance, some job.” He was looking for a job because he needed to look after his mother, brothers and sisters. His family was on the streets, no food to eat. “Go and ask the Mother.” So He went there. When He stood facing the Mother, the Mother of the Universe, all he asked was, “I seek from You nothing but enlightenment!” Even under those difficult circumstances! When He came back Ramakrishna asked him, “Did you ask the Mother for help?” He said, “No, I asked for enlightenment.” So he said, “Oh! Go again and ask. Ask for whatever you want, whatever you need – food, clothes, job, money. Just go and ask, you will get it.” But every time he would go and stand in front of the Mother all he could ask was, “I seek nothing but enlightenment.” Three times Ramakrishna sent Him, three times he could only ask for enlightenment, even under those circumstances where ordinarily anybody else would have sought their needs. So He as a person is truly unique, fully committed to seeking enlightenment, no matter what.

So too Siddhartha, the future Buddha, sitting under the Bodhi tree having given up his home commits himself to enlightenment, even unto death. And so too Ramakrishna, with great intent and intensity of sadhana was ready to strike himself with the sword unto death if the Mother Goddess did not reveal herself to him at the very instant. She did.

Ramakrishna then blesses Him, “Go, you will have your enlightenment of course, it is yours. You are truly blessed that you seek enlightenment and God-realisation to all else, and your family will be taken care of too.” That was the blessing of His Guru – but he did not seek it, yet committing himself unconditionally to God-realisation. His Guru said, “Your family, from here on will have enough food and clothes and basic needs taken care of.” And to Him then the Guru gave all the power he had acquired by his sadhana, everything he had. All His meditation, all the merit he himself had acquired, he hands it to Him – “Here, you are qualified for it!”

You still think practically, ordinarily. You think like everybody else in the world. While people like them, they are special: they think differently. You can say they have tremendous trust in life. There is not even a thought to worry about existential material needs. This is unimportant to them. And you can see in the world too, there are many a time when you think you can do so much for someone and you do not manage. It is not in your hands. You are either only an instrumental means or things are taken care of in spite of all your efforts.

I will tell you a story. There was a devotee of God walking on the ghats of Benares, Kashi. And in Benares you have these washermen and women, dhobis. They wash the clothes in the Ganga and then dry them on the banks of the Ganga, on the ghats. Sarees, pyjamas, dhotis, shirts, trousers, sheets, etc., everything is dried there. This devotee was remembering God, he was all the time remembering God, and he was walking on the ghats not realising that he was walking on all those freshly washed clothes. Now the dhobis were washing on one side and they saw this fellow absorbed in his own thoughts walking and leaving his footprints on the clean clothes. They were furious obviously and immediately got up picking up their washing sticks – you know they have these big sticks to beat the clothes while washing for removing the dirt from them – and ran after him to beat him up having spent so much effort in washing these clothes and now because of this fellow they would have to repeat the performance. This fellow is absorbed in the thought of God. Supposedly at that time God Vishnu was in his abode Vaikunṭha, Heaven, resting, reclining on his bed on the coiled Shesh-Nag, the Cosmic Snake, and Goddess Lakshmi, his Consort, was with him, who was serving him by pressing and massaging his legs and feet. Now this fellow is a devotee and he is remembering God, so God Vishnu’s attention is there on him for God is always keeping watch over his devotees. He is watching this drama being enacted down on the earth. When he sees these dhobis, these washermen and women pick up sticks and chase after his devotee, he gets up for a moment with a concerned look on his face, and then lies down again. So Goddess Lakshmi thinking she may have hurt him while pressing his legs, asks him what happened, ‘You got up all of a sudden with a concerned look on your face – did I hurt you somewhere?’ He says, ‘No, it is not that,’ explaining to her the reason. What had happened was when the dhobis chased after this devotee there was a lot of shouting, ‘Beat him! Catch him!’ This fellow was lost in the thought of God. Till he was totally surrendered to God, unaware, uncaring of what was around him and himself, it was obligatory on the part of God to take care of him. So God Vishnu got up to help because he saw the threat to his devotee who was unaware because he was thinking of him. The responsibility was then on God to take care of him, to prevent him from being beaten up. But this devotee was not that committed beyond a point after all. All the sound and noise, shouts and clamour broke into his absorption and awareness. He turned around, saw the angry dhobis come after him with sticks and realised that he was walking on their freshly-washed laundry leaving dirty footprints, and foresaw what was going to happen to him – so he started to run. He was now saving himself, and he had forgotten God! So God lay down again. His responsibility to protect him was over since the devotee was now protecting himself, do you understand? Can you have that kind of commitment? These are attitudes to be developed. Ramakrishna expected Vivekananda to ask only for enlightenment and God-realisation, because he wanted Vivekananda to be special.

When Siddhartha leaves his wife and six-month old child, do you think he ponders who is going to take care of them? What will happen when they wake up in the morning and find Him gone? Of course He is a prince, his father is still alive, he is a king, so his wife and child will be well taken care of materially – but emotionally? They would be devastated, because Siddhartha was a very loving man. So who would take care of that? If it were you, you would think, ‘If I were to leave my wife, my six-month old child who will take care of them?’ And that would be it, end of story. But then Siddhartha becomes Buddha who takes care of the world – not of just one child, one family. He is too big to be reduced to one family, one child. His destiny is greater. He takes on a greater responsibility. Anyway what child? For this life, yes, for the next it all changes. Of course for those who have not got that kind of acquired and accumulated merit, they should work through their smaller responsibilities, yes, and grow from there to greater responsibilities. But not for the Buddha or Vivekananda. The Reality, God and Existence would take care of their smaller responsibility for them while they went to fulfil their greater responsibility and destiny.

I will tell you another story about these relations. Once Krishna and Arjuna were travelling after the battle of Mahābhārata. They were great friends, besides one being the Guru and the other the disciple, one being the God and the other the devotee. Arjuna’s son Abhimanyu, a sixteen year old teenager, had been killed in the battle. He was a very brave warrior. Arjuna had a lot of love for his son. So once while travelling he was remembering him greatly. Memories came up. There were tears and up-surging of emotions. So he spoke to Krishna about Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu was also Krishna’s nephew, his sister’s son. Krishna was the uncle of Abhimanyu and Arjuna was the father. Arjuna is devastated with his loss. “I miss Abhimanyu very much,” Arjuna says to Krishna, “I wonder where he is now?” Krishna smiled. That relationship, that journey together of the father-and-son duo is now no more. Have you any control? The soul is journeying an individual journey. To whatever extent you have a relationship, you have a combined journey – so long as that relationship remains. At that time they were passing by some village. Krishna said to him, “Would you like to meet with your son? Let us stop here. Come, I will take you to Abhimanyu, or who Abhimanyu is now.” He drives the chariot into the village and stops where there is a group of children playing and says to Arjuna, “Go see if you can recognise Abhimanyu amongst those children. He is there. He who was Abhimanyu and who is now not anymore your son, that soul has taken birth again to carry on his journey of evolution. Can you recognise him?” Arjuna cannot – Krishna can. Arjuna shows his helplessness and yet is restless to meet and embrace once again his son. “How can I find him?” he says, “I cannot recognise who is my son Abhimanyu.” Of course he cannot recognise him, he is taken to another body and another life, he is no more his son now. He is somebody else’s son, but it is difficult for Arjuna to accept this. So Krishna helps him, points him out. “See that one there, sitting there, playing by himself on the side? That was your son in his previous life. While yours is still the same life, his has moved on. You cannot even recognise him now and neither will he. You still carry the memory of that relationship because you are still in this life. And because I am pointing him out to you that this is Abhimanyu, so you will have the same feeling towards that boy, but he will not.” And so it happens. Arjuna rushes to the boy because he loved Abhimanyu so much. He picks him up, embraces him, “My son,” he says, but that boy starts to cry, afraid! “What are you saying? You are going to take me away. You are kidnapping me, abducting me! I am not your son. My mother and father are here.” He starts to scream frightened that he may be taken away by strangers.

Therefore the company of Krishna, the Guru: to give you the right perspective on life. It does not mean that in life you do not have feelings and emotions, you do. But know that life has a greater journey to travel. You reduce it to a certain timeframe and limited vision and fix it there. Therefore you think in this way.

Some relationships last for one lifetime. Some can carry on for many lifetimes. Abhimanyu’s relation with Arjuna is over, at least for this lifetime. Even with Krishna it is over. Krishna was his uncle in that lifetime. But in this lifetime he has another uncle. Krishna knows, because Krishna is a Seer, he is the enlightened man, nay he is a God.

So many times you get so obsessed with things. In a way Krishna is liberating Arjuna from that memory, giving him a greater wisdom. That boy pushes Arjuna away. But if he were still Abhimanyu of the previous life he would have responded eagerly and affectionately to that embrace. Here he is pushing him away, “Who are you? You are a total stranger to me.” So in a way he is saying, ‘My journey now is elsewhere.’ Krishna wanted to show Arjuna that. Of course Arjuna will still carry those fond memories, those emotions and feelings, until that life is over. Once that life is over it is all gone for him too. Whatever you may have developed through those relationships you carry; but the focus of your emotions and feelings, your relationship, is gone. Those images are gone forever – dissolved. So you reduce your life to such small fixations and you prevent yourself from opening out into that vastness! Not only do you deny yourself, you deny those you possess or feel you love, by holding them back too. So Arjuna says, “You are my Abhimanyu.” The boy says, “No!” categorically, because he has moved on.

So with Narendra also, it does not mean he would not take care of his family. He was taking care, but internally the whole of his self was turned to That, wanted That – Reality, God. So the Guru takes the responsibility. He says, “Narendra’s family will have food and clothes.” Ramakrishna had the power to do so. “They will have what they need – while you will have your enlightenment.”

O.: Do they not get strong pain through that? If you suddenly leave your mother at twenty to search for your enlightenment it could cause the other strong pain.

It would, for sure – if it was for a selfish and petty motive it can be irresponsible. It was not so for Narendra. It was not so for the Buddha. If it was an escape, yes – but for them it is not. That is why the inner state or your inner motive is very important, how you approach anything. It is not that Narendra wanted to abandon his family, although his whole being is turned to enlightenment, his whole soul. It is not out of some kind of selfishness or out of smallness.

You know there is the story of Chaitanya in the same way. His elder brother at the age of sixteen took saṃnyāsa and disappeared, left home. Chaitanya was the younger brother, Nimai was his name at the time. He promised his mother Sachi that he would never leave home because his father had also passed away.

This is not for imitation. It is not possible for you to imitate them anyway for you would fail. I am trying to bring you to an understanding of these souls – how committed these souls were. You have to try to understand their person and their personality.

Nimai is very sincere when he promises his mother that he would never leave her. The elder brother has gone at the age of sixteen, the father has passed away, only Nimai is left with the mother. He gets married. The first wife dies; He marries again. He is staying with his mother. But then He goes to Gaya where he meets his Guru. But it is not because of His Guru – otherwise you will blame the Guru, poor Guru – that he is leaving his mother now. (Laughter) The Gurus always get blamed! So He goes to Gaya at the age of twenty-four. He comes back, he is a changed man. Just like Siddhartha: when he went out and he saw what he saw about life – a leper, a dead man, a saṃnyāsa. Nothing could stop Him then. You cannot and could not stop Siddhartha from becoming the Buddha. So also you cannot and could not stop Nimai from becoming Chaitanya.

And it is not that their families, about whom you are so worried, did not get taken care of in life. Sometimes you can be endlessly working and hardly making any benefit for yourself or for them anyway.

So Nimai comes back at twenty-four, he is a changed person. He cannot stay. He has to go. It is not about going or staying, please try to understand this. Many have gone and have not gotten anywhere; many have stayed, do stay, and get nowhere also. And Nimai goes away. He says to his mother, “I cannot stay. If I stay I will die.” His destiny is calling him. So for those who have such a destiny, you cannot stop them. For those whose destiny is not so, you cannot even make them leave. (Laughing) And besides, Vivekananda’s family did not end up on the streets, the Guru took care. That is the Guru’s grace. In fact they were blessed in being the family of one like Vivekananda. And so also the family of the Buddha. They were blessed. How many of His family then followed him!

It shows a lack of trust in existence. You are so afraid that one would end up in the streets without anything.

Nimai leaves and becomes Chaitanya. He cannot stay back. It is not that He is going back on his words. It is His destiny, that nothing can change. It is so strong – His commitment to this and what he is to Be. It is not out of an escape.

Sometimes, most times ordinarily, people are just going around in the same rut. And then the excuse is, ‘Well I am taking care of my family,’ because they cannot and most times do not want to get out of that rut. So they give it a very ‘noble’ excuse. And even after ensuring their family is well off, still they carry on. So where is the end? Okay, it seems like for the family of Narendra since they are almost on the streets, maybe there is a validity to think in this way. But God does not think like man for God has a greater vision than man. So if you think like man, yes. If you think like God, it will be different. You know in Indian families you have the son, the son grows up, he has children also – still the mother thinks the son is a child. ‘I have to take care of the child…’ Where do you stop? The son now has a family, he has his own children, but the mother still wants to take care of the son. She feels otherwise he will not be able to take care of himself, truly preposterous. Finally she herself dies. Who is going to take care of him now?

Nimai’s mother was taken care of and his wife also. Not only taken care of materially but spiritually too: to be the mother and wife of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu indeed! So also the family of the Buddha; they felt themselves blessed to be the family of an enlightened man, and that too such a one as the Buddha.

Of course I am not equating them with the seekers, the tourists of today. There I would give a different take on this. There I would agree with you.

And so it was with Shankara. He also left his mother when he was very young, only eight. He had no father, no one else in the family beside himself to take care of his mother. And in those days the mothers could not get a job. Now you can – everybody can. There is also reservation for women, special placements for widows and everything, so there is plenty of opportunity for them to take care of themselves. In those days – no, there were no such opportunities, although they were taken care of by community and family, for the community and familial bonds were stronger. And he belonged to a Nambudiri Brahmin family, who are very orthodox. They do not even go out of the house their whole life. While today the whole world is yours! At that time Shankara at the tender age of eight says to his mother, “I have to go.” Destiny is calling. And the mother got taken care of for the mother has her own karma, her own destiny.

It is accepted, even in the scriptures, for a greater calling to give up a smaller calling. This is a greater calling. And it is a call for Them, I am saying. It is not for imitation by the ordinary, the mundane who want to make an escape, be irresponsible. That is another matter. These are unique figures. And it is accepted – for a greater cause to give up a smaller cause. And they are genuine people, unlike the tourists of today. I am not comparing with them. They have a long way to go before they can equate themselves with Them in that way.

But do you know how Shankara got the permission from his mother? It is quite clever. He was bathing in the river while his mother was on the banks filling the pots with water and he suddenly started to shout, “Mother, mother, a crocodile has gotten me. He is going to drown me, I am going to die. The only way I can be saved, the only way he will leave me is if you will allow me to go away and take saṃnyāsa.” (Laughter) The mother was a simple woman, she would not want her son to die. She would prefer to stay with the pain that the son is elsewhere rather than see him die. So she agreed. “Yes my son. May you live. You can go and take saṃnyāsa.” Immediately he was released by the crocodile. He came out of the river, took the blessings of his mother, touched her feet and left – and became the great Āchārya. That is the story of Shankara. It is not that they are going for some fun, whim and fancy – please, I am trying to explain something. I am explaining the profundity of these souls – not for imitation, but for inspiration definitely. It is not for fun that they are leaving, having a great time, while ordinarily people are leaving and parting on some whim and fancy for things insignificant in the world all the time and yet they want to judge and be critical of these great souls. This is their destiny calling, the destiny they themselves have constructed over lifetimes.

But then ordinarily you can get carried away with the material benefits and comforts for yourself and family, amassing wealth in greed exceeding your needs, and there is no end. That is why in the Indian tradition there were the four āśramas so that you did not get carried away and so entrapped in your worldly materialistic living. The first is one of education, learning and character-building: Brahmacharya; the second is of course out in the world, furthering the welfare of family and world: Gṛihastha. That does not stop the learning, it does not stop your seeking, but it is done within that framework. And the third stage where you leave home, hearth, world and society, and enter into the forest for detachment, contemplation and meditation: Vānaprastha. You leave everything, now they can take care of themselves – the family, the sons and the daughters. They can stand on their own feet so that they also learn to be responsible for themselves. And you go, for your benefit, their benefit and the benefit of the world. It is not an escape. It is a responsibility that is required – a responsibility to your own growth and their growth, even so spiritually. That is the third stage. In the fourth stage you do not depend on anything or anyone: bound to no place, roaming free with no roots in society and the world, the last years of your life spent in continued contemplation, meditation and absorption in God. That is the stage of Saṃnyāsa. So in this way then, you developed your spiritual life also and having done whatever in the world gaining experience, practice and learning, you pass on to the next life. Today it has all got mixed up. Today it is till the last moment you are making money, having fun, passing time and supposedly taking care of family and then you drop dead one day. And you have not done much about your spiritual growth. You have not done much to become wiser except for much unaccountable fanciful fun. Anyway you do not have to worry much about this. You are quite free, you are totally free. Today you are here, tomorrow Thailand, day after Karnataka, after that Sri Lanka. You are blessed. You have the whole wide-world open to you. But imagine people who have families and have responsibilities, they have a nine-to-five job rut to follow. They have a nine-to-five job in the office and a twenty-four hour job with the family.

So have a big family, do not have a small family. You can have the whole world as your family. These great people have made the whole world their family. That is why Krishna is explaining to Arjuna, “Do not be so attached and enamoured of Abhimanyu. He was also my nephew. He has moved on. Understand the ways of life, the reality of life. You did your best when he was there.” A lot of times people deny the large family for the small family, just because they may have been born of one’s loins. That is what Krishna is saying, “Abhimanyu was born of your loins in his past life, but now he is not born of your loins. Just because he came through you, you feel he or she is yours. They are souls on the endless journey of evolution.” So you can say that life is a situation given to you, each time to grow and excel from. This is wisdom. Then you have the correct perspective.

In the Mahābhārata there is the family called the Kauravas: Dhritarashtra and his hundred sons. He is so infatuated by his own son and wanting anything and everything for his son that he does all the misdeeds, because he does not have this wisdom. He compromises with what is right for the sake of his son, compromising on the truth, on dharma, on righteousness – ‘He is my son so I must do the best for my son’ – even if it meant denying rights to somebody else’s son. Many people do that – ‘My son.’ Then that son leaves and departs into somebody else’s life. This is called ignorance.

Arjuna was lucky as he had somebody like Krishna at every step to open his mind out, to give him the correct perspective to live to the fullest and in the most enlightened way. That is why you need the Guru. The Guru does not need you. If you understand this, if you remember this, the ego will not surface. If the Guru needs you, it is only to do the work of That, so that the world may be more enlightened, more illuminated. And in that is your own growth. That is why Ramakrishna told Narendra, “If I did not see God in you I would not even look at your face!”

X: Arjuna got Krishna and the Kauravas got Dhritarashtra. Was it their destiny?

Sure, because their destiny was of their own making. Kauravas did not want Krishna. Krishna was available to the Kauravas also. In fact in a way, materially, Krishna seemingly compromised with the rights of the Pandavas and yet they still stayed committed to Krishna. In lieu of Hastinapur kingdom, Duryodhana so stubbornly and unjustly wanted for himself, He ultimately asks for only five villages out of the entire kingdom for the Pandavas, one village for each brother. In that way at least ordinarily speaking the Kauravas should have got appreciative of Krishna for such a cheap settlement. But not only did they not appreciate, Duryodhana wanted to imprison Krishna, even though he showed him his godly form. They are blinded by their greed and ignorant, arrogant ego. Therefore that is their destiny of their own making. It is all the accumulative tendencies of past lives developed in an adverse way, which is anti-divine, not just undivine. So therefore they get blind Dhritarashtra as their father and Dhritarashtra gets the arrogant Duryodhana as his son. And when Duryodhana was born, Vidura says, “Kill him. He will destroy the clan, the family, everything, and corrupt the society. Everything that is true, right, and good he will destroy. Kill him; he does not deserve to live.” But Gandhari is a mother, she says, “My son.” And Dhritarashtra, a father, also says, “My son. How can this be?” And of course today they would say this is infanticide. Later on he destroys everything of course, and all the other ninety-nine brothers also die. The whole clan is finished proving Vidura right.

X: It is said by enlightened people that every soul has an ultimate fate of divinity. It might take a very, very long time. In that particular life they were not aware of this.

Aware of what?

X: Of their own fate. Of what is right and wrong and what they were doing. Even if Duryodhana was killed at birth, he would have taken birth again in another form.

Hopefully there would be Vidura again to advise to kill him! (Laughter) Otherwise the others would suffer, like the Pandavas did. Seriously speaking, everyone knows what is right and wrong at least most times whether it is from instinct, learnt or from within, from conscience. Surely the people in the world are not going around living their lives not knowing right from wrong and therefore unaccountable. That would be a joke if not tragic. Duryodhana knew very well what he was doing but he did not want to be held accountable. And according to your philosophy and understanding acquired from your so-called enlightened people – understood or misunderstood – every thief, murderer, rapist and brigand in the world knows not right from wrong and therefore cannot be held accountable and must be allowed to carry out their activities however harmful and hurtful for the sake of their undelineated destinies whatever that may be on their long journey to their ultimate fate of divinity! Wow that’s some journey! Preposterously comic if not tragic I must say this idea of the world and destiny.

X: Where commitments are concerned the ego comes in. There is also the fear that one will not be able to fulfil the commitments.

But that can be overcome through time, like everything else. It does get overcome and you grow in commitment. How do you think one grows in life and things if not through working them out?

I give you the example of Ramakrishna again. He had these two disciples. One was Jogin, who became Yogananda after taking saṃnyāsa; and the other was Niranjan who became Niranjanananda. You can say they had almost opposite personalities. Niranjanananda was a very strong-willed person while Jogin was very meek in his personality. So Ramakrishna would give him projects which would make him stronger. For example – very simple things – He would ask him to go and bring some sugar from the shops, or rice, or something. And then would tell him, “Make sure that the shopkeeper does not cheat you and that you get a little more added over the actual measure as is the cultural tradition and the norm. When the shopkeeper measures out the wares make sure that you get the little extra. You know they are supposed to do that, it is part of their trade dharma. So make sure you get that.” He was so meek he would not. But this was Ramakrishna’s way to make him more assertive. These may seem simple things, but the Gurus work like this. He was making him stronger progressively.

There was an episode where the same situation happened at two different times to both Niranjan and Jogin. These boys used to come from the city of Kolkata across the Ganga to visit Ramakrishna. Once when Jogin was coming by boat there were many people in the boat who were criticising Ramakrishna. Jogin became meeker and meeker, trying to conceal himself in some corner of the boat to prevent being recognised without saying anything. When he arrived and sat down in front of Ramakrishna, he said to him, “Wah! Jogin, they said so much about me and you did not even say a word in defence. You just took it all so timidly!” Now the same thing happened to Niranjan. One day he was coming in the boat and people started to say all sorts of things about Ramakrishna. Niranjan got very upset, so upset that he was going to turn the boat over and drown everybody. He said, “I am going to kill every single one of you! You say one word against my Guru!” and proceeded to rock the boat. He was going to drown them. They all stopped of course, very frightened, seeing Niranjan ready to carry out the threat. “No, no, no. We will not say a word against your Guru,” they said. Then he stopped rocking the boat which finally reached safely the temple of Dakshineshwar. He got off and walked to Ramakrishna’s room and sat down in front of him. After a time Ramakrishna said, “Why Niranjan, they said a little bit against me and you were ready to kill them!” Here He is mellowing him down, while with Jogin he was bringing him up, making him stronger, more assertive. It is all part of the learning and growing through associating with the Guru. The learning is general and specific. There were things that Ramakrishna would allow Narendra that he would not allow to others, because it was alright for Narendra, he could manage them. But the others could not. Today of course the same medicine is given for everybody. Immediately, otherwise, one will say, ‘Hey, you allow him all that, and you do not allow us!’

So coming back to Duryodhana. The Divine is there in these trees, these stones, but you still cut the trees down to make your homes. You do not say, ‘This tree is potentially divine and so do not cut it.’ Now Duryodhana is not manifesting the Divine, Duryodhana is manifesting his demonical qualities. So what do you do? You believe and hope that the Divine will manifest as his destiny sometime in the future and leave him to do whatever he pleases or you deal with the present?

X: Every soul is potentially divine and has to reach to divinity. If Duryodhana was killed just at the time of birth his journey would be halted there, and again that soul has to come again.

Thank you for educating me! So you mean to allow him to continue to do whatever he did?

X: No. Where will that soul come and how will he be able to realise that now he has to stop it?

The soul will return and learn the hard way if not the easy way. Do you think Duryodhana realised in the end? That after doing whatever he did, he realised it? That he said, ‘Now I have done all this, I know what I have done was wrong, I will not be doing it anymore?’ Do you think he did that? It is the question. And even if he did learn from his doings should he have been allowed to do harm and not prevented?

X: Unless he gets some person like you or Krishna…

Well Krishna was there, available. That is the whole point: Krishna is available. Krishna comes to Duryodhana, and how many times! But he does not want Krishna. He does not even know or understand what Krishna is. So Vidura is speaking from what he would be and do as an adult, the harm he would cause others, even death, and corruption of the society through his ambition and manipulations. Is it not then sensible to eliminate the bad to protect the good – the moot question?

Look at Ravana. When Rama is dealing with Ravana, until such time he really strikes him down, Ravana refuses to understand. Only in the end he accepts Rama for what he is, otherwise until then he continues with his atrocities. So he needed that treatment.

I know it seems quite gross and unthinkable to kill a child but those times were different, the thinking was different. Maybe Vidura was just making a point to the parents to take extra care in his upbringing, preventing him from harmful influences, warning them of the consequences otherwise that everyone would have to suffer. Anyway it would not have got carried out. The parents Gandhari and Dhritarashtra made sure! It seems very harsh. But like you, people would rather Duryodhana committed all that he did than get rid of him as a child even though knowing beforehand what he would be doing as an adult: they allowed him to live longer so he could do all the harm he did and then anyway finished him off. So Vidura was speaking from that view-point. Duryodhana if he is allowed to live is going to do this anyway, he is going to finish off the whole clan. The situation would have been different if he were dead. All the harm done by him could have been prevented and the family and clan saved from decimation. The Pandavas, Yudhishtira and his brothers would not have gone through all that hell and nearly murdered. And the people of that kingdom would not have had such a king as Duryodhana with his manipulations and intrigue for whatever period of time. What about them? We are not thinking about them, who would have saved themselves so much misery! What about Draupadi, who would not have had to go through all that indignity?

X: Parents, if they realise that, should prevent their children from doing things which will again carry on their suffering in future lives – this should be their duty. If the parents have understood something on the line of destiny and want to make their children understand, but they are struggling and things become complicated, then practically what does one do?

Practically you can only hope! (Laughter) What else can you do? And you can try. To whatever capacity and capability and the skills that you have that much you will manage – that is what life is all about, isn’t it? And you hope each time your skills will improve, your capacities will increase and hopefully things will work out. So there is always hope. But what I am saying is, even when it gets to a point of hopelessness – and I bring now the example of Dhritarashtra – even after all his sons were lost, everything was lost, he still wanted to continue to sit on the throne, his ambition to rule was so great. That is why Vyasa has compiled this epic, to give an insight into human nature, human mind, with its infatuations, greed and ambitions. Where and when is the point of hopelessness and where and when is room for hope? Even when the truth is staring you in the face, even when Bhima is being abusively critical of Dhritarashtra, he does not want to give up the throne. It is Vyasa who comes and tells him, “Now leave. You continue to indignify yourself by sticking here when you should have handed this throne over to Yudhishtira to rule, and taken to a life of solitude and meditation for the few years of life that are left to you.”

Maybe, he too was thinking, ‘My son is in transition to a great so-called potentially divine destiny.’ In the meanwhile he has the divine right to rule over others even if he is not qualified just because he has a hankering for it even if it means denying another’s right who happens to be more qualified… How should this be decided? Who should be the one to decide? Dhritarashtra was not capable to decide because his own vested motives were involved. He so much wanted to rule – which blinds him from doing the right thing. He wanted that throne for himself and then for his son at all costs, even in spite of Krishna being there, with whom not only did he not consult but gave him no importance. So instead of consulting Krishna who knows the line of destiny he carried on with his own ideas of the line of destiny for himself and his son that ultimately led to war and destruction.

So I said there is a general teaching which we are talking about, and then a teaching specific to the occasion, person or specific to a family like here. But then the person should be open to the teaching and committed, unlike the father-son duo of Dhritarashtra and Duryodhana.

Dhritarashtra has lost all his sons, thanks to Duryodhana – what happened? It still did not bring the right kind of understanding! So sometimes it is hopeless. What is to be done? He was lucky he had Vyasa there, who besides being a Ṛishi, really was his father and so he is forced to listen. Vyasa comes and advises him, “Go now. You are sticking to the throne here for no right reason. In spite of being undignified, insulted, still you continue just for the sake of misplaced ambitions which haven’t subsided even though you have lost all your sons because of it!” This is mohā, delusional infatuation and ignorance. He finally listens to the advice and gives up the wrong line of destiny and takes the right one. If he had shown more sense before, he would have saved himself lot of trouble and grief, and his sons, not to mention all the killings and the corruption of the society. So hopefully through life and its experiences an understanding will develop and Life could live a more enlightened life. Even this debate, this dialogue is to develop this understanding and enlightenment, to get an insight into doing the right thing at the right moment. It is not about fixing things. We are not talking about fixing things mechanically. That is why I am saying it is not an imitation; it is to develop an insight into things. That is why these epic stories. And that is why the story of Abhimanyu and Arjuna.

It is so easy to fix yourself in a certain way, give absolute values to things transient, fix the whole timeframe that life and things in life have to be permanent. It is not permanent! If you had this understanding, maybe you would have a better idea of life’s line of destiny. If it was not spoken and taught one would not know it, one would continue in the usual way because that is how most people are. They are restricted in the knowledge they have.

And it is not that Dhritarashtra was unconscious or unaware of doing the right thing. He had only one ambition – the throne, that is all – and for that he would do anything and everything. That is why they show him blind. He was blind to the truth because of his ambition. Even when Vyasa wants to give him sight he does not want it. That is symbolically meaning that he does not want knowledge, he just wants the throne. So nobody can help him, nobody. Even when destruction is staring him in the face he still does not want to change. This is mohā, delusional infatuation. And Vyasa has compiled this epic bringing this character so clearly in focus that you can get the idea of how it is with him – the hopelessness. How one can carry one’s ambitions and desires to such an extent where it loses all meaning leading to destruction. And it is reflected in everyday life. It is not about going or staying. We are not talking about that; we are talking about an understanding, to develop an insight and understanding. So then Vidura suggested what he suggested. Obviously he knew this suggestion would not be carried through. But Vidura was a wise man. I know today people would be horrified with a suggestion like that but he is thinking of all those who will suffer because of that child.

And Gandhari – see her mohā – she even curses Krishna for having not done enough to prevent her sons from dying. It is not the fault of Krishna. She does not say anything when Draupadi is disrobed; she does not say much when the Pandavas are almost burnt alive. She would have been very happy if the Pandavas would have continued to stay in the forest while her son ruled. This is mohā. She is being unfair for the sake of her own child. The clarity goes. Mohā does this; attachments do this. Therefore she could even curse Krishna after the war. When all her sons are killed, she curses him – curses Krishna! She herself was a great devotee of Lord Shiva, but seemingly not very wise, because her mohā, infatuation for her sons is so strong, she curses Krishna wrongly blaming him for the war, although the ambition and manipulations of her son was the cause of it. Krishna had to stand by dharma and war became inevitable wherein her sons were killed. He has not come for her son; he has come for the truth. If it means killing her son, fine. She is only thinking of her son, she is not thinking of the truth, dharma. Vidura was. This is the fallacy. Krishna accepts the curse. In her mohā she can even curse the Divine. For whom? For Duryodhana who was her son in that life. Who knows whose son he may be in the next life? But he did all the harm he did in that life. Because of her ignorance she has this total infatuation for him – ‘My son!’ Yes, he was her son in that life, but she gets blinded to such an extent that she is ready to compromise with dharma; she is ready to be unfair to others, even curse Krishna, the Divine. While Arjuna is open to learning, receptive and committed. That is why Krishna shows to Arjuna the line of destiny of the soul who in this case was his son Abhimanyu for whom he is still pining. “Which Abhimanyu? That life you lived together as father and son is now over – he has moved on.” With this over-infatuation one may even hold one’s near and dear ones back and prevent their growth. Maybe Duryodhana would have been better off if he had passed on early into his next life, he would not have had Shakuni, brother of Gandhari, as his uncle, who really influenced him, keyed him up for that villainous role he was to play later. So there are many possibilities in life, many. Life is open-ended. The more factors we involve in our understanding, the wiser we are. So proportionate to how many of the required factors one may have considered that much you are closer to doing the right thing. Like you were asking, ‘What is the right thing in these moments?’ Yes, you find yourself in a situation and you have to decide. If you have all the factors, all the information, then you would make a more informed and complete choice and decision. But sometimes emotions blind you. So many things blind you. You seem to think through your feelings. Gandhari was seeing and thinking through her feelings, so she curses Krishna. Do you think she was justified in doing that? Would you identify with Gandhari there? It is a question. Think about it. Is she right in cursing Krishna? Not because Krishna is Divine – he may easily have been an ordinary man. Her emotions, her attachment, her infatuation to her son blinded her. I am sure if the Pandavas had died she would not have cursed Krishna. This is the difference. Me-and-mine. But the Divine sees all as His while supporting the right – not only those who come through one’s loins. Vidura was wise.

It is not a fixed and rigid law then, rather rightfully fluid to the moment. Some do take and fix the idea of dharma in time and space blindly as an external ritual and mere mechanics of life. It is not easy for everybody to understand its spirit so easily right away. The choice is always there. You have the freedom of choice. But sometimes you have to watch your mind. Is it really that you are seeking to make the informed choice, or is it an excuse? That requires tremendous watching. It requires real sincerity to want to know the truth, even more so a greater truth. And it may not happen immediately. And through experience you see and learn that, ‘In spite of wanting to be sincere I have not done really right’ – so you correct and so you move forward. That is how life is. It continues to grow like this. So the Mahābhārata is a great epic. It is a story which gives you incredible scope for learning and understanding. There is tremendous scope for development of insight into things – human nature, life, dharma, how to live an enlightened life. It is good to debate and discuss because that way the intuition, insight and understanding develop. So really we are discussing. I may get a little energised in my emphasis but that is only because of the force in me.

(Speaking in Hindi to X) And I would like to clarify that I did not have you in mind when I spoke about tourists. And yet! (Everyone laughs)

X: I understood that. I took it rightly to mean that people are generally at the level of tourists.

Yes. It is where most people are at. Life is a process and through stages one has to arrive at greater and greater understanding so that one may live a greater life and existence.

X: I have some more questions but I will ask them personally. Some are unconsciously living in the world, some are living with the right Guru, living right at the top and some are in between, neither here nor there. If they go down there is an abyss and if they want to go up they have to think whether they will manage or not. They do not see a way up or down.

They are the ones in a problem!

X: They have responsibilities also. We do not want to run without fulfilling our duties…

Sometimes run away a little and then go back. (Laughing) That way you will have some preparation for running in the future. And those who stay back will also slowly get prepared for your eventual break away. (Laughter) It also gives them an opportunity to see how their life is in your absence. They get a perspective. There should be some space. What happens is that when we say, ‘We have a responsibility towards them,’ a lot of times actually it ends up preventing them from growing because we do everything for them or we are worrying for them. But if you were to allow them to grow on their own… That should be considered also, so that they can grow in responsibilities. Many times we suffocate all that. We prevent that to happen – albeit with all sincerity of thought. You are being very sincere, you feel your responsibility, but it can at times prevent their growth into being responsible for themselves, to be able to stand on their own feet. That is why it requires a right balance so that they can make their own choices and make their own mistakes also. Then they learn from their mistakes. A lot of times what happens is that to prevent those mistakes from happening you prevent them from growing, from being able to think for themselves. This happens.

K.: We have been away from home two months now!

They are enjoying over there, you are enjoying over here. It is all fun! (Everyone laughing)

You are eating malpuas and laddoos over here – they are eating over there. (Laughing) They are enjoying without the father and mother… And the father and mother are enjoying over here! So if we do all the time things for them – how will they learn to do things for themselves? One has to keep all this in mind. And the earlier they begin the better it is, there is no age limit. You are only a help and a guide. They are not yours. They come for the future. This is why I told you all these stories today. They do not belong to you: they belong to the future. That way they are free, you are free.

K.: We know that Buddha and Mahavira were good men. How can we know if they were enlightened? That only you can know, not us.

You can know through me! You are eating rabri, keep eating it.

(The satsang ends in laughter)

Panchmadhi

7 Feb 2005